John Surtees, a living motorsport legend as well as the International Motorsport Hall of Fame member is the only man in history who became to become World Champion both on two and four wheels. Having started riding motorcycles the Briton quickly became not only a close competitor for more experienced riders but also a frontrunner. Possessing his unique ability to adapt his riding style to any weather conditions, he managed to win the legendary TT Isle of Man race which was the part of the world championship in the 50’s, on numerous occasions and in different categories. Seeing his successes many bigwigs made attempts to lure the star motorcyclist to race cars, but it was Colin Chapman, who succeeded where all his opponents failed. AS a result, John caught another racing bug, proving to be just hugely successful in Formula 1 by winning the World Championship behind the wheel of the Ferrari after only 4 seasons. Later on, in order to keep the motivation at the highest level, he accepted another challenge and started his adventure in the American CanAm series where he established his own team which would join the F1 fray a few years later. After retiring from motorsport Surtees switched his attention to managing his son’s promising career and continued doing so until 2009, when Henry was tragically killed in a fatal accident during a Formula 2 race at Brands Hatch. Nowadays John is taking care of the that has been given his son’s name as well as a carting center called Buckmore Park, where we had the honor of meeting him a few days ago in order to hold this fascinating conversation.
Wojtek Paprota: John, looking at several drivers from past 5 or 6 decades we can say that being from a family that is already somehow in motorsport or even a motoring business determinates the drivers' approach to racing?
John Surtees: I think the environment in which you grow up, of course, has some affect. At the same time many young people particularly through carting who start the relationship with motorsport, perhaps don't have a family and they see everything on television, they see this or that in publicity. That is also great, but from my point of view, my father's involvement in motorsport led to me being involved because he was a British champion in motorcycles and side-cars and when he started up again to race after the World War II, I was a very young man so I went with him to races. I became a second mechanic so my life was partly set on the mechanical side. But I think it is perhaps somehow in people's mental make-up within the family which encourages them to take the challenges in motorsport or other sports. I think that the main ingredient is that someone has a degree of competitive nature within them. Some people have more than others. That is something that I think decides how they take themselves to life.
Wojtek: As you said, you were involved in motorsport because your father was also a racing driver. You were very competitive in motorcycles since the very beginning because you were able to challenge experienced drivers like Geoff Duke who was thought to be a superstar in the 50's. Were you surprised about that?
John: Well, pleased, yes! But if you are going to race, you race to try and win. That is the objective and fortunately, I had had a lot of successes before on most of the English circuits and I had driven against other people like Geoff before. Yes, it was a pleasant way I did surprised everybody, but it was something which I was trying to do.
Wojtek: Did the other people from motorsport consider that kind of situation like a prove of your great talent or rather like a prove of a great technical support you used to be given from your father?
John: My father's main technical support was when I was 11 years old and he gave me 2 boxes and inside those boxes where the motorcycles in pieces. He said to me "put it together and you can ride it". From then onwards I started riding but all the machines I raced, initially my Triumph and my Vincent and so on I prepared myself. The support I was being given from my mother and father was there but they basically used to say: "that's your career and you do it". They didn't have a deep involvement in the preparation on bikes or cars. However, they were very enthusiastic. Sometimes, when we had a race in a city far away from home my mother used to drive the van while I slept in the back. It was a very much a family affair. If we went to the races within the MV Augusta and Norton my parents used to come to some of them and give me all the support.
Wojtek: I think it is a really healthy approach!
John: Yes, I think so. My father often used to put it this way: "I won't do it for you, but if you want an advice, I am here, but get on and do it!" That is definitely a good approach!
Wojtek: Between 1956 and 1960 you became a 4-time world champion in motorcycles and you also won a legendary TT Isle of Man race 4 times. I think that in the 50's it was a bit different because it was a part of the calendar and it was held at the shorter track. Was it like a jowl in the crown?
John: Yes, it was a different event because the Isle of Man race was part of the world championship and it also took up 2 weeks before. At first, it was a week of testing and then a week of racing. You would have an early morning tests and evening tests because the track had 37,5 miles and it was a long way for one lap. As it was a world championship round, all the title contenders had to go there. Some of them didn't like it, but they had to go there. You had to adopt your style to suit the isle Man because the isle Man being so long and with types of corners if you get the rhythm right and really had that record in your head planned for circuit correctly you could be fast and also safe. But if you went along and tried to do too much on the one part, you would likely to enter the major problems later on. In a Grand Prix, you do a 101% effort or perhaps a 102% effort, you go over the limits but at the Isle of Man you don't. You even not going to go a 100% because it is not a place to take the liberties with. Knowledge is very important but today it is very different because the drivers concentrate only on the Isle Man and they race there 40-50 times. It is because they have a lot of different classes now. It is a very different world but in my times it was very good as well.
Wojtek: You were a very successful driver at motorbikes in the 50's, but what was your opinion about the cars then?
John: I didn't have any opinion about the cars because I didn't even look at cars! Apart from driving them, I hadn't been on a car race because I was totally concentrated on the motorcycles.
Wojtek: Had you been in touch with any people from Formula 1 at that time? Had they been trying to convince you to try a race car?
John: Yes, of course! It was in 1958 when we were at the end of season event in London. I sat on the table with Tony Vandervell, the founder and the creator of the Vanwall company, which had won the first constructors Formula 1 world championship in 1958 and Mike Hawthorn who had just won the drivers' championship for Ferrari and Reg Parnell who was a team manager of Aston Martin. I was on that table and Mike Hawthorn, who also liked motorcycles, turned to me and said: "John, why don't you drive a car?" I said: "No, no, no, no!" and he still tried to convince me to try a race car by saying that it "stands up easier". Tony Vandervell then said: "If he drives a race car and he is a motorcyclist, I am a motorcyclist too!". He also really liked motorcycles. He told me to drive a Vanwall however Vanwall had already retired from F1 when he said this.
One week later Reg Parnell rang me up and said: "Let's have a conversation. We are going to go testing at Goodwood with DBR1, the Aston Martin sports car that Stirling Moss won at the Nürburgring with. Why don't you come down and drive this car?" I thought why wouldn't I have some more fun. I went down I drove it. I did 10 laps and came to the pits. Then Reg told me: "Before we continue, can you sign this?" I asked: "What is that?" He answered that it is a contract so I said "No, no, no. I am a motorcyclist, I can't sign more contracts." After that, he told me that if I would like, he got the contract for me.
I had a good day and came home and Tony Vandervell came on the phone. He asked if I had been at Goodwood and then he said: "I have got everything prepared and we are going to Goodwood tomorrow and I want you to drive a Vanwall". I said: "Why not?" and we went there next day and I drove a Formula 1 car for the first time. After this test, Tony said that he would return to racing if I could drive an F1 car for him. Once again I said: "No, I am a motorcyclist". At the same time I had another problem because I used to race not only MV Augusta motorcycles but also my own Norton machines at races at the beginning of the year and by the end of the year, after the championship season. I would do races like Aintree, Silverstone, Brands Hatch. Augusta said that I must had stopped it. The Italian newspapers were saying "John Surtees doesn't need an MV Augusta to win". I didn't like this because it had meant that I was going to do less racing. I thought about it and I saw that there was nothing in my contract what would say that I can't drive a car, so I tried it. I thought: "I won't drive for a team, I will buy a car". I went to Cooper to buy a Formula 2 car, a Cooper Climax. When I got there, he introduced me to a man called Ken Tyrrell. He said: "I have entered you to the first race of the year at Goodwood in my Formula Junior Cooper Austin. I am creating a new team in car racing and I want you to drive it. I got you a license, I arranged all the other details, I checked that it doesn't interfere with your motorcycling contract so... will you do it?". I thought: "Why not?" and I started in my first ever car race.
Wojtek: But when it comes to Formula 1 your first team was Lotus. How did you end up there?
John: It was after I did Goodwood. I took my own car to Oulton Park where my father was number one mechanic and I was number two mechanic and driver. I came second behind Innes Ireland in the works Lotus but in front of the works Coopers and others. Then I went to Aintree for the International Formula 2 race and I was first British driver in the British car, in front of 3 Porsches. Colin Chapman came to me there and said: "John, I want you to drive Formula 1". I kept saying that I couldn't as I was a motorcyclist, but he was pushing me to do it. I went to Silverstone and I tried Lotus 18 and after that he said: "I want you to drive for my team". I kept saying that I was a motorcyclist but Colin was still trying to convince me. Then he finally said: "Ok, drive for my team whenever you can drive. I will give you an entry whenever you are free. The first race is going to be International Race at Silverstone". I took a challenge and started in that race but I was forced to retire. Then I also started in races in a number of races. One of them is probably the biggest disappointment of my life. It should have been the first win for Lotus in Formula 1 and that was a Portuguese Grand Prix. I put it on pole, I led by 25 seconds and I did a bit silly mistake when I was passing Stirling. It was slippery and I crashed into the wall... After that, I got second in the British Grand Prix and it was quite good.
Wojtek: You spent next 2 seasons, 1961 and 1962 in Reg Parnell's team. Why? You are British and Lotus was also British so it seemed that you could have been a great duo. That was also the time when Lotus started making his mark in F1 field.
John: I was indeed going to stay with Colin because he asked me to be a team leader. At the end of the year he said: "John, I want you to be my number one. Who would you like as your team-mate? It is your choice". I said that I had wanted Jimmy Clark as the other driver. I used to get on with him very well. Then we had a tremendous raw with Innes Ireland. He already had a contract and he started to make it very uncomfortable for me with the publicity, because I was a new boy and he thought that I was going to move him off from his team, so I walked away. Perhaps today I wouldn't do that but then I did, I was a little bit sensitive to it. I walked away in time when everybody fixed their teams, so Reg Parnell came and said: "Come on, we have got a set of works Coopers and we are going to run them as a second works Cooper team". It wasn't too bad. It was good actually. Then, unfortunately, there was a big problem with a fuel company which supported Cooper and they said "No". We ended up with some production cars. At the end of the year, Ferrari asked me to join them and I went out there and said "No". I decided that I wanted to know, I wanted to get a bit more knowledge and background because I got no background. I have only done half a dozen races. I thought that the car company in England that had been very competitive with Lotus had been Lola, in Sports Cars. I lived closed when Lola was so I went to see them and said: "Would you build a Formula 1 car?" The final result was that by German-credited finance they were building a Formula 1 cars and that car nearly won a few races. We came home second very often and we ended up 4th in the world championship in the first year. Then Ferrari asked again. Because Coventry-Climax company was not sure that they would be still supplying engines, I decided to go to Ferrari.
Wojtek: Was it problematic for you to get used to Italian racing culture and work ethic in Maranello, what was much different than the one in Great Britain?
John: I was well used to Italian ways with my motorcycling from MV Augusta times. Ferrari was very different. My first job there was to do the test and development for the sports cars because that was where my firsts races would be. Mr. Ferrari always had during the winter a big involvement in developing the sports cars and after that because of limited money and people they did a Formula 1. Le Mans was very important for him and he was trying to get his production car well established. I enjoyed driving sports cars, it was a new experience for me.
Wojtek: How can you compare Enzo's managerial skills and approach to racing to British manufacturers'?
John: You can't do it. The British way of doing things and the Italian way of doing things distinguish different things. Each of them has their very strong points and I loved it. I loved the times in Ferrari and I have never expected that to stop till the end of my career. But Ferrari was at the very difficult time because he was trying to establish his production. Ford had been trying to buy him and he had to try to finance everything. He didn't have a bigger involvement in racing. What's more, he never came to a race which was a great shame. Since his son died he stopped and he didn't come to a race at all except to the practice at Monza in September. It was the only day we could saw him at the Grand Prix. All the information he got was second hand and that was the major problem.
Wojtek: As you said at the beginning, Ferrari used to divide the season into 2 parts, with Le Mans race in the middle. Looking at that strategy from your current perspective, do you think that it had more positives or negatives?
John: From a point of view of a driver in Formula 1 it was totally negative. We wasted so much time that could have been spent for Formula 1 but from the point of view of Ferrari, the sports cars were also something he wanted to develop as it was his business which was giving him fun as well as to money that let the whole company exist. I can understand his thinking. The problem was that frankly he didn't have enough money to do both classes for 100%. There wasn't enough money and resources so he had to do this compromise which was sports cars and then concentrate on F1. You can see that we were always improving when the Le Mans was over and that is purely because of the concentration which went into the cars. Certainly we would have been in much bigger threat if we had worked on the Formula 1 cars in a way that British teams had been working for ages.
Wojtek: When did you think for the first time about becoming a Formula 1 world champion?
John: I always treated each race as a single race. Yes, if you win a world championship, it would be an icing on the cake. But to do that you got to win races, what is the most important thing. Obviously, the ambition was always to win races and then the world championship as well. But that wasn't the main objective. The main one was always to win the next Grand Prix so I didn't think a lot about the world championship even up to Mexico. I obviously was aware that there was a chance. I got very angry with some of the things which happened in America when Peter Arundell hit me when he went out of the pits. I had a chance to win there. A number of things made it a bit more difficult for us to win the world championship but it didn't seem home until I had done it. The rest of the time I was mainly concentrated on doing my best at every single race.
Wojtek: What went wrong that you decided to change your team and didn't follow up with Ferrari to the end of the season 1966?
John: I was leading the world championship at that time in 1966 and we had a lot of potential things which could be being developed. Unfortunately, the program in 1966 got very confused because of the worries over Ford and also the introduction of FIAT. A number of decisions in the team were taken for the wrong reasons. For example, the decision of what car I should have driven in the Monaco race was wrong. I shouldn't have driven a new car at all. I should have driven the old test car which was the V6 engine, 2.4l. That was a faster car in that stage. Then some political things came up directly after the Italian Grand Prix and they were really holding us up. I still think about it. I think that if the original program had been followed, the results of 1966 Le Mans would be different. I also had great problems with team manager, Mr. Dragoni, who was very involved in certain political aspects and I just lost my patience. As I said with the time in Lotus, when I left, perhaps in this case as well I could have done it in a different way. The Italian newspapers said that I had a divorce with Ferrari and I was so angry about this for many years. But I met Ferrari again later on, much later. He said: "John, what we must remember is our great times, not the mistakes". He lost some championships because of me and I lost some championships because of him. I am sure that we could have won in 1966 and with the material we had we could also do it in 1967. But that was it, and it became a challenge.
Wojtek: Has anything changed in your approach to racing after winning the championship in 1964? Was it like maintaining the motivation at the high level and in order to do it, you decided to get involved in another project, CanAm?
John: These things have always been my life and in this case it wasn't any difference. That is also the way I am involved here, where I am trying to change this place entirely. If you look at one side and then to another, you will see that the one where I got involved is almost perfect.
Wojtek: What made you to establish your own team at CanAm and then in Formula 1?
John: I was bitterly disappointed that a Honda program had been stopped. We had a great material and the progress we were making was fantastic, way better than at the program. We had a potential to win a world championship. The car in 1968 could, with a little more reliability, win a championship. But suddenly it had been chopped when the accident in France happened and Jo Schlesser died. That was a great disappointment. Then the BRM came on and said what they would do and what they were planning to do, like 12-cylinder engine or something. Jim Hall had a new, experimental car what was part of the program. None of the basics have been really kept, according to one of the programs that I thought I am not sure I want to have this anymore and I might have taken the challenge by myself. In some ways what I should have done when I was thinking about my team was probably to go along and say to Colin Chapman: "Colin, let's forget our bad times and let's see if we can come together again". From the other things, the team gave me a lot of satisfaction, I created it from nothing with a very little money. The first Formula 1 car we put on the track for 22500 pounds.
Wojtek: What was the most prideful day of your team principality career?
John: We had a number of enjoyable days, for example, the victory at Oulton Park in TR7 was very good. From the other day the biggest disappointment was Mike Hailwood not winning 1972 Italian Grand Prix. Winning the European championship with a TS10 was good and actually the last race I did with the team was a Japanese Grand Prix, which I won in 1972. I also won at Imola in this car. One of the things which were also not so good is that we spent way too much time doing a new car for 1979. We did a new car this season but we needed to stop before we had started. I just went to Goodwood and had a test I think that we had the fastest time there. Then we just used to say "If only...". I have been in Canada in 1978 and I had to make a decision in the hospital when I got after a big crash to close a team and dispose all the assets. The majority of them we sold to Frank Williams.
Wojtek: After you retired from motorsport, both as a driver and team manager you were doing a fantastic job for Mercedes because you were a great part of some of their campaigns. How do you recall those times?
John: I had nothing to do with cars until Mercedes called me in 1988 and they said to me: "Fangio is too old now and we need a world champion to drive museum cars. We want you to come to Spa to drive one of them. Stirling will be there as well. Will you come?" I thought: "Spa? I like Spa! Why not?" I went there with Stirling and there were 2 cars there. One car was the 1955 car and the other one was much bigger and taller with huge wheels what was built even before the World War II - W195. It was that car that was driven by people like Rudolf Caracciola or Bernd Rosemeyer. Stirling decided to take his car so I had to drive that monster. I had never driven such a vehicle and when I looked inside I saw that there is a throttle in the center and the brake was on the right. It took me some time to get used to this but I managed to do so. This car got more than 500 horsepower so I had to be a little bit careful. I didn't know the new layout of Spa so I went out and I followed Stirling and learned it. After some time, I started to feel a great excitement. From that onwards I went to many similar events with them and drove this car at the circuits around the world consistently.
Wojtek: You also played a significant role in managing Henry's career, didn't you?
John: When Henry came 8 years of age, it was in 1999, he came down here, to Buckmore Park and said: "Daddy, that is what I want to do!" So I became a carting-father. Basically, we were a little team. We won some junior championships and then we went to Formula BMW and Formula Renault. He had driven a Formula 3 car once and he won a race. We were going to do Formula 3 but the only team we could afford, what was a good team, said that they wanted me to be part of the organization, to give them some experience. It was the plan for 2009. Unfortunately in a later part of 2008 I had a heart attack and was taken to a hospital. It was too close to the time when the decision had to be made. It was around Christmas time and what is more, I didn't know if I would be able to do any kind of job. The alternative was Formula 2 and Henry was signed up there.
Wojtek: I think that the rest is history, sadly. What was your involvement in improving safety standards in motorsport after his fatal accident at Brands Hatch?
John: The biggest safety features came about with more money, space technology and the development of the survivals from Formula 1 and that was superb. Also, circuits started to be looked up properly, a little more run-off space was given but one of the things we showed up after Herny's accident is that the FIA method of checking out that car met the standards was better and more efficient. Secondly, when there had been accidents or failures on a car, the reactions were not very good. They were recorded to look very nicely in paperwork but the paperwork didn't lead to any real decisions because it was only been good if it went to someone. That year in that category a number of wheels had come. But nothing had been done about this until the day when Henry was killed when the real suspension was already designed. Now according to the way the regulations work, that won't happen again.
Wojtek: Nowadays you manage the Henry Surtees Foundation. What are you major activities?
John: Foundation's major activities are obviously to try recover from injuries with air ambulances. All my life I have been chasing time and so the interesting thing is that if I am chasing time, time is the biggest single thing which you need on your side if you had an injury or in times of illness. Working with a number of air ambulances on introducing blood transfusion and plasma at the scene of the actual incident and when it is appropriate, it saves life and potential injuries. We are concentrating on the equipment supply to carry out these operations and also move the blood between various places. For example, we are working closely with a hospital in Oxford which helps us to supply some equipment for some people to not lose the ability to move and muscle weight, which happens often in some accidents. I am looking now and trying to create a learning side of our charity here in Buckmore where youngster from the community can be attracted to find some path in life and career. This is the way how I got emotionally involved. It has been a driving force for me over the years. This is something that I want other youngsters to experience.
Wojtek: Do you think that the motorsport will be perfect and 100% safe one day?
John: Nothing in life can be 100% safe. Look at these stupid accidents which happen in life, all the circumstances. All you can do is to provide the best possible features. It has been a wonderful effort what has been put in improving safety features and comparable to any other sports it is very good. Just look at the accident like Alonso's in Australia and how it all worked out. If it was in my times, he would have been dead for sure, forget it. He would probably be a ball of fire. There has been a tremendous advancement made. What is important is these advancements are all streamed down and are not only at the highest level but also at the lowest level. We have to work at all the stages and just go on in a constant search of perfection, but I don't think that we will ever reach it.
